Grand Slam Stringers - ATW help for an amateur stringer

Andrew B.

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 18
Lexington, KY
Gender: male

ATW help for an amateur stringer
Oct 11^th, 2006, 4:52pm

Hi folks,

First off, let me say this is a GREAT forum. I've really enjoyed reading all the back posts and catching up, and feel pretty honored I can ask a question like this of you experts (you know who you are, I'm sure Wink

Before the question, some background and introduction, if I may.

Anyway, I've strung my own and friends frames for many many years, since I was 14 and stringing at our club in exchange for free strings (until I got sponsored). I bought the tabletop Gamma machine I have now back in 1995, and it's served me very well. I'm consistent, but not really very fast (about 30 minutes for a frame, counting mounting but not machine set-up).

So, pretty uneventful stuff. Follow the standard recommended 1 or 2 piece pattern for a frame, or, when I can't find one, make sure to take notes of how the frame was strung before removing the strings (unless, of course, it's obviously wrong based on what the frame is "telling" me). Excitement for me was messing with different hybrids.

Now the question. I've never done an around the world pattern - don't even know where to start (literally and figuratively). I've read some of the threads I've found, but gotten lost kind of quick - I think if I saw someone do one, it'd all click into place, but it just hasn't yet. And evidently some patterns seem to be a better fit for some frames, so then I'm really lost.

Would you mind describing a good around the world pattern for me to try for my own frame, a Bab Pure Control+? 16 mains, 20 cross, I've strung both as one piece and two but would like to learn something new.

Many thanks, and again, this is a great forum! When I need some tools or supplies, I'm also going to definitely look here first....

play well,
Andrew

Back to top

IP Logged

Forum Admin

GSS Administrator

Offline

Grand Slam
Stringers!!

Posts: 2816
Roanoke, Virginia USA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #1 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 8:20pm

Andrew

You say your frame is a Babolat Pure Control +? Although I don't have one in front of me if memory serves me well that's the black and red frame and is not one where the mains end at the throat. ATW only applies when the main strings end at the throat. In fact, I think all of the Babolat Control series frames have the mains ending at the head--if I'm incorrect please verify that your frame is different.

ATW is a pattern that was primarily designed to allow the stringer to install the cross strings from the top down as opposed to the bottom up.

Tim

Back to top

Try to live your life as if you wouldn't be afraid to sell your parrot to the town gossip

IP Logged

Andrew B.

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 18
Lexington, KY
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #2 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 9:40pm

Hmm, I'm glad the old saying is "there's no such thing as a dumb question", cuz now I feel pretty dumb!
Embarrassed

But, that would explain why, when looking at my frame, the patterns all didn't seem like they'd make sense!

You've correctly remembered my frame, it's the Red and Black one and does have the mains ending at the head, so I guess it wouldn't apply. But a few of my friends/customers have frames that do have mains that end at the throat, and I've often wondered how to do the crosses from the top down.

Can you point me at a pattern that's easy? Without going out and looking at my stringing records I can't think of the name of their frames.

thanks!

Andrew

Back to top

IP Logged

Forum Admin

GSS Administrator

Offline

Grand Slam
Stringers!!

Posts: 2816
Roanoke, Virginia USA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #3 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 9:58pm

Andrew

To be clear it's not where the mains start, but where they end. If they end at the throat that's where the ATW applies.

Example: racquet with a 16 x 19 pattern mains end at throat....just remember there are several ATW patterns and this is only one example Wink

String mains as usual only install 14 mains, not 16. This will leave your short side as well as your long side ending at the top, not the bottom. Tie off your short side -- there's much debate about whether or not to increase the tension on the last pull of the short side prior to tying off--you'll have to decide for yourself what you want to do here. I increase my tie-offs by 5 kg. Increasing the tension is believed to reduce the amount of tension on the tie-off string Wink

Now, you have your short side tied off and your long side remaining. Take the long side of your string and string the first top cross, then string the main string that you left out on that side, then the bottom cross, and then the last remaining main string on the other side that you left out. This will bring your long side totally "around the world" and back to the top and you can now begin to install the remaining crosses from the top down to the throat.

One important note. When you come around the world and install that first bottom cross string you must know how to weave this string or your crosses are not going to come out right. Remember you have already installed your first top cross string Wink

If your pattern calls for 19 crosses as I have used in this example, you must weave the bottom cross the same as you wove the top one--in other words, look at the main string that the cross string passes over first at the top. Now follow that main string to the bottom and make your cross string weave there match the one at the top. If your number of crosses is odd (19) your top and bottom cross weave are the same. If the number of crosses is even, your top and bottom cross string weave will be opposite.

This is always the hardest thing to explain for someone who's never done an ATW pattern so hopefully you understand what I'm saying. If not and you do not match those two cross strings you'll know EXACTLY what I'm talking about when you get ready to weave the very last cross string on your racquet Wink

.

Hopefully this has been of some help to you.

Tim

Back to top

Try to live your life as if you wouldn't be afraid to sell your parrot to the town gossip

IP Logged

Andrew B.

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 18
Lexington, KY
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #4 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 10:03pm

Awesome Tim, Thanks so much! I completely get it now! And I do see what you mean about having to know how to string the bottom cross, otherwise I'm sure the language when reaching the last string might be pretty ..ah...colorful!

I realized I said "start" when I was thinking "end, and was back modifying my answer while you wrote that great explaination.

I'm getting ready to go to Hilton Head next week, for a week with the guys, just to play tennis, hang on the beach, eat, and drink a few cold beverages. Taking the stringer, so I'm absolutely going to try this while I'm there. Thanks again!

Andrew

Back to top

IP Logged

Forum Admin GSS Administrator Offline Grand Slam Stringers!! Posts: 2816 Roanoke, Virginia USA Gender:	Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer Reply #5 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 10:05pm Glad to help out--I was wondering what happened and thought perhaps you had gone back and modified your post as I was responding--makes sense now Tim
Back to top	Try to live your life as if you wouldn't be afraid to sell your parrot to the town gossip IP Logged

Andrew B. Newbie Offline Posts: 18 Lexington, KY Gender:	Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer Reply #6 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 10:15pm I see now the main reason I didn't understand the patterns was I didn't get the reason behind doing an ATW. Went back and looked at some of the descriptiosn that I hadn't followed before, and they make complete sense now. Anyway, I'll be lurking and learning, and contributing when I can. Thanks again! Andrew
Back to top	IP Logged

David_Pavlich

GSS Pro Board Member
21 Club

Offline

I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 1141
Mandeville, LA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #7 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:07pm

If I may jump in here, the Aeropro Control is the same pattern as the Pure Drive/Pure Drive Roddick/Aeropro Drive...16x19 and the mains end at the throat. So there's one "Control" frame that would utlilize an ATW pattern. FYI, I use the pattern Tim described which is also called a box pattern in some stringing circles.

David

Back to top

USRSA MRT, Shop owner and a really nice guy!

IP Logged

Andrew B.

Newbie

Offline

Posts: 18
Lexington, KY
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #8 - Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:18pm

David_Pavlich wrote on Oct 11^th, 2006, 11:07pm:

If I may jump in here, the Aeropro Control is the same pattern as the Pure Drive/Pure Drive Roddick/Aeropro Drive...16x19 and the mains end at the throat. So there's one "Control" frame that would utlilize an ATW pattern.

Yes, the Pure Drive and the Aero Pro Control are two used by my buddies/customers that I've done that I wondered about how to do top-down if I was stringing one piece. Luckily, every time I've strung one of them it's been a hybrid so I didn't have to figure it out.

But one of them is going to get a one-piece job next week, just so I can try this out!! Cool

Quote:

FYI, I use the pattern Tim described which is also called a box pattern in some stringing circles.

That's good to know, thanks for jumping in David!

Andrew

Back to top

IP Logged

Dr. Bob Newbie Offline I Love YaBB 2! Posts: 7	Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer Reply #9 - Oct 14^th, 2006, 11:52am If it is best to string crosses from the top down then why don't racquet companies design all their racquets to end the mains in the head? -Robert
Back to top	IP Logged

David_Pavlich

GSS Pro Board Member
21 Club

Offline

I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 1141
Mandeville, LA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #10 - Oct 14^th, 2006, 11:59am

Because racquet manufacturers hate stringers. Angry

Afterall, why else would they make Power Holes, O3 holes, Rollers, cap grommets, etc. etc?

I could guess at the real answer and say it's the geometry and playing characteristics that dictate where grommets are located. I would say that the manufacturer's reply to your question would be to string it 2 piece. Otherwise, do it 'round the world.

David

Back to top

USRSA MRT, Shop owner and a really nice guy!

IP Logged

Forum Admin

GSS Administrator

Offline

Grand Slam
Stringers!!

Posts: 2816
Roanoke, Virginia USA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #11 - Oct 14^th, 2006, 5:50pm

The ATW patterns have been discussed in depth on these boards in the past and this is a subject that will always carry much debate within our industry Wink

.

Robert, to give another perspective on your question I would submit that racquet mfgr's, have no publicly stated position on ATW stringing--at least none that I've been able to locate. To take that one step further, from our discussions in the past you'll see that not everyone agrees on the reasons for using an ATW pattern. For instance, we had a rather lively debate on this in the earlier days of GSS and someone from Wilson's design and engineering department jumped in and stated that Wilson designed their racquets in such a way that they felt their racquets could be strung (cross strings) top down or bottom up. His statement went right to the heart of the integrity of their product. One reason for using an ATW pattern is to protect the structural integrity of the frame and to prevent the frame from cracking while being strung. The list goes on........and on........and on

As for David's idea that racquet mfgr's hate us

I would say this--I agree 100% with that statement when I see some of the designs those guys come up with for racquetball racquets. E Force was one company that started taking the main strings through the handle and not long after that many stringers were asking E Force to supply the racquet technician with some of the same drugs they were giving their design people. After all, what's fair for one is sure fair for the other right Grin

Tim

Back to top

Try to live your life as if you wouldn't be afraid to sell your parrot to the town gossip

IP Logged

David_Pavlich

GSS Pro Board Member
21 Club

Offline

I love YaBB 1G -
SP1!

Posts: 1141
Mandeville, LA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #12 - Oct 14^th, 2006, 10:23pm

That's a good one, Tim...about the racquetball frames. I don't do many due to the fact that it's not a popular game here, but I did 2 this week. Fortunately, they were patterns similar to tennis frames. However, I've done a lot of the drug-inspired, string-through-the-handle frames. Enough, in fact, to agree that there had to be some outside influence on the engineers that came up with the idea. ET, maybe? Shocked

David

Back to top

USRSA MRT, Shop owner and a really nice guy!

IP Logged

kilodog

Full Member

Offline

Stringer Geek

Posts: 198
Florida
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #13 - Oct 15^th, 2006, 3:04pm

Quote: "Example: racquet with a 16 x 19 pattern mains end at throat....just remember there are several ATW patterns and this is only one example Wink

"

Well, not exactly - sure, it there are 6-holes in the throat-piece, that is the common - but if there are 8-holes, (as 99% of any 6x19 frames would dictate) then the main's end at the top/head.

So look at the throat holes and combine that with the actual listed pattern for a better reference I'd say.

Also with regards to those of us actually who are in the design/Mfg aspect, I (personally) find it narrow-minded that some of you would think that we, (the Engineer's) "hate" stringers.

Frames be that for RB, tennis, etc, are all designed for the BEST performance by the end-user, (i.e.; the Consumer) and that is the main-focus in design.

The professional role of a stringer is that equal to any top-level auto mechanic who needs to continually keep his skills & knowledge updated for thoes new products that are introduced and made available to consumers.

Would if be beneficial to any racquet-sport's consumer if there were no new innovations and this was done by us, just to keep 'old-school' stringers happy!?

Geez...I thought we all took a bit more pride in this aspect of 'new-knowledge' and felt pride in giving this Art of stringing/servicing, one that it deserves.

Seems some just like the easy-way-out!?

It isn't 'rocket-science'...it is racquet service.

Back to top

IP Logged

Forum Admin

GSS Administrator

Offline

Grand Slam
Stringers!!

Posts: 2816
Roanoke, Virginia USA
Gender: male

Re: ATW help for an amateur stringer
Reply #14 - Oct 15^th, 2006, 4:25pm

Quote:

Well, not exactly - sure, it there are 6-holes in the throat-piece, that is the common - but if there are 8-holes, (as 99% of any 6x19 frames would dictate) then the main's end at the top/head.

The poster specifically asked about the Babolat PD +

Quote:

Would you mind describing a good around the world pattern for me to try for my own frame, a Bab Pure Control+? 16 mains, 20 cross, I've strung both as one piece and two but would like to learn something new.

therefore, the first part of my response was to clarify that this frame (Babolat PD +) does not apply when it comes to ATW because the mains do not end at the throat, which the poster acknowledged Wink

The second part of my response clearly pointed out that the example I was giving was for a 16 x 19 frame where the mains did end at the throat Wink

If there was a question in the post about how to determine whether the mains end at the throat on another racquet or just racquets in general I missed it. Even though the poster is admitting that he has no idea of where to start with an ATW pattern he doesn't appear to be asking how to determine which frames apply and which do not, therefore, I only addressed his question and didn't elaborate further.

If that were the question then Kilodog makes a good point. You can also look in the USRSA's stringing manual and see if the mains end at the throat or the head by looking in the section entitled "Mains". There you will see a heading entitled "Tie Off Mains" so this is usually a pretty good indication as to whether or not an ATW will apply. I would not, however, depend on the printed information because there could easily be mistakes, just as with any publication of that nature. If you're in doubt, a very good way is to just pre-weave the main strings and this removes the question.

Quote:

Also with regards to those of us actually who are in the design/Mfg aspect, I (personally) find it narrow-minded that some of you would think that we, (the Engineer's) "hate" stringers.

I've known David for quite some time now and just knowing his personality his comment was most likely "tongue & cheek" and not meant as a cheap shot at anyone. David, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:

The professional role of a stringer is that equal to any top-level auto mechanic who needs to continually keep his skills & knowledge updated for thoes new products that are introduced and made available to consumers.

Would if be beneficial to any racquet-sport's consumer if there were no new innovations and this was done by us, just to keep 'old-school' stringers happy!?

This is always a subject for debate and will be for as long as the relationship between the racquet technician and the manufacturer exists. Here you see one opinion expressed from the manufacturers point of view and I'm sure there are other manufacturers that would weigh in and support this point of view. Obviously dealers have their own opinions on the subject and if any of you would like to add your comments here's your chance. In fact, go here

http://www.grandslamstringers.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1160943237/0#0

and post your comments as a continuation of this topic.

Quote:

Geez...I thought we all took a bit more pride in this aspect of 'new-knowledge' and felt pride in giving this Art of stringing/servicing, one that it deserves.

There are a lot of professional racquet technicians on the GSS boards and elsewhere that do in fact take great pride in their work. I wouldn't necessarily equate a lack of pride in one's work when a question is raised about any one aspect of the business they're involved in. If a positive dialogue can be established that can benefit both parties involved that's the place to start Wink

. Pointing the finger and painting someone into a corner with figurative labels is not very productive Wink

and makes it more difficult to move towards a positive solution. I suppose we're all guilty of that at one time or another in our lives. Hopefully if we recognize it we can learn from it and move on Wink

Tim

Back to top

Try to live your life as if you wouldn't be afraid to sell your parrot to the town gossip

IP Logged